Now, you were born in .. in Britannia Street, Hoxton Britannia Street, Hoxton. When was this - 1880, 1890? 1887 1887. What was your father's job? May father was a cow-keeper - in Britannia Street, and he had 15 cows. Where were they kept? Under the shop! What sort of shop was it? A milk shop. I see. Milk and butter only - not like it is today, tea and goodness knows what. There was just milk and butter, milk and butter and eggs. Just a dairy. Just a dairy - yes. And had he any employers - employees? Oh yes. We had a cow-man. Who milked the cows? The cowman Yes. Anybody else? No. Only my mother in the shop. She helped. Was it quite a big house? Oh no, not very large. About how many rooms have you? Oh, you've got me guessing now. I should say about five - five rooms I should think, no bathroom or anything like that! You didn't bath in those days did you!!!! What sort of a district was it? Very poor, and people come in for milk in a - washing jug, you know? Yes, I know And - no cans. Had a horse and cart but you ……... Just one milk urn at the back. It was your father's horse and cart? Yes. And what did he use it for? Just for milk round. He had a milk round as well as a shop? Yes, yes. About how big an area would he go round? Oh I couldn't tell you dear You were saying that you were exercising the cows every week. Every Friday. Hmm. And where did they go? The whole length of Britannia Street and back again. It wasn't very far, was it? Not very far, no. But it was an exercise, you see, and they were all washed down, the backs of them were washed down every day - and their tails washed. (laughter) They must have been a bit squashed under the shop. Oh, they wasn't in the shop. I mean underneath. Oh no - it was a large cowshed. Was it? Hmm, built under the shop, you see, and as the cows came in they went down the slope you see, into the shed. How large a family were you? 13 Gosh! Where abouts were you in your family? Oh, I was - John, Fred, Arthur, Ben, - I was the fifth Had you any help at all or did your mother manage it all? Yes, my mother managed it all. Quite a lot of work? Oh yes. Well, they had to work in those days. Yes. How many girls were there? Well - there was one girl, and as one girl was born so one died. I see! That was strange wasn't it? As another girl was born so one died and I had one sister only out of all those children there was only one girl - and she was killed with the last doodle bomb that came over - but on the evening of the bomb, on the evening my brother will went round and saw her and said 'now,' he said, 'you go down in the cellar tonight and I'll make you up a bed down there'. There were going to the pictures but they thought they wouldn't and he made her a bed up down in the cellar and the whole of the house collapsed but a beam or something must've come across just enough to hold the weight off her and she was killed with the blast. Her clock was going on her hand. How old were you when you started school? Oh, about 6 or 7 I suppose. Was it a local school? Yes, it was - er - Quite a lot of them were Church schools. It was a Church school, Radnell (?) Street, Church school, and then from there I went to St. Thomas's Charterhouse. How old were you then? Oh, about 13. And how long did you stay there? Till my father died, when my father died, we (Inaudible) How old would you be then How old was I - ll. Oh, I must have been at Charterhouse before that. Yes. 11 when my father died. Did you enjoy school? Oh yes! What sort of things did you enjoy? Er - swimming, music lessons, physiology in a large theatre you know, in a large theatre where we all sat round and the lectures were given in there, - piano, singing, violin - but I never took up with them you see - like the piano. We were all taught but if you're not in it well you don't learn, you don't do any good. Any other games besides swimming, sports, that sort of thing? No, only fighting! And where did you go swimming? In the school. Oh yes. Swimming baths in the school. Oh, they had their own baths. Oh it was a lovely school. Headmaster had top hat on and gown. It was a jolly good school. Then you see, we boys were supposed to be selected but we was as bad as any others and then we would go down through an alley way in Goswell Road where there was a large open space and we would fight another school. I bet you did too - (laughter) Very spiteful - threw bricks and all that was goings on. Did you actually take an exam. To get - No, no. No, I got in St. Thomas's through a Conservative M.P. by the name of Richards or Richardson and he got me there. I see - and you stopped there until you were 11? Yes. Where had your other brothers gone? One went to Cowper Street - and I forget the other, the name of the other school. It was at the back of - on the Wesleyan Church in City Road. Ah yes. All fairly near your home? Oh no, long walks, long walks to school. How far did you walk to St. Thomas's? Er - about 2 miles I suppose, from City Road to Goswell Road. You didn't have money to ride on the bus like they have nowadays. No, no buses no trains. Lazy little blighters! No, we had to walk then. Were your parents interested in education, in schooling? Oh yes. My father was very good in the law - very good. If he had any trouble such as a query over the agents which used to be 5% and 10% and so much, and if he had a case of that he always brought his own case and won. And he got his education of law by every spare time he had, He was in the Magistrates' Courts. Observing, seeing what went on? Yes, yes - and he died at 41. He was only a young man. Have you any idea of why he died so young? Yes, I think he must have had severe blows on the kidneys. That's what I believe. I don't know, don't know. It was a shocking death. Because he'd been a prize fighter? Yes What was that in his younger days? I only remember him as a cow-keeper and a publican. You had a public house did you? Public house, yes. Oh yes, you were saying that you moved there after. That's right (inaudible) You moved from the dairy? From the dairy we moved into Pentonville and at Pentonville we had an antique business, that is that we would buy quaint old furniture and do it up and make it look new and sell it as antiques. Quite a prosperous business was it? Oh yes. It sounds it. And your brothers helped in - ? No, no, the only help my brothers gave was in the public business. I see. How about your mother? Well she was just a lady. (inaudible) She helped? On dinners you see. If we gave a dinner then she would supervise, suckling pigs, of bone or beef, shoulder of lamb lobsters - oh, a lovely dinner, and she could lay a table too. Our tables were - well, one table wasn't long enough so then there was a second table and a third table, but it was all in one - you know - made into one, glasses, lovely glasses she had, all colours, like a long stem and a yellow top, a blue top, a fawn top - made a nice show. And then of course there was the decoration of the flowers. That was the biggest job of all. Used to have quite a lot of dinners. What sort of occasions were they for? Masons and friends down from Scotland. Lord Hamilton was one. I could have - I didn't think or it a cigarette-holder which was presented - was given to my father by Lord Claud Hamilton. It's two lovely stags on a meerschaum body. Very nice they are. How did your father know him? By being a sportsman you see. My father had a Caledonian Shield for the finest man who walked through Edinburgh. You see, he was a sportsman. Was he a Scotsman? No, he was born in London but was brought up in Montrose in Scotland. His mother was Scots. Was he interested in politics? Oh yes, yes. He was a Radical. When he died, when he died - he was a Radical, his friends were Conservatives. When he died he was a Radical with Conservative views so I don't know what you can make of that. And our friends and the people that did the most for any of us were Conservatives. He used to - Claud Hayer I think was the man putting up in the district for Parliament and my father had carriages, traps and did a lot of work for this man in canvassing, and when my father died we never heard from him. Never heard from him. But Richards - that was the Conservative, Member for Finsbury, he was a gentleman. He helped us quite a lot. Of course, you want help when you lose your captain don't you? What sort of help did he do? Well, in getting rid of the business and looking after us children, to see that we were placed alright. How did your mother make ends meet? She did, she did. How did she? By being thrifty. I lost my father in 19- in 1896 I think, and then she fetched up the remains of our family, Fred, Arthur, Ben, Gus, Will, Otto and Annie. There were 7. She fetched up 7 children and when she died she left us £3,000. Yes. And were you all well fed, well clothed? Oh yes, yes, yes, very well. Good work was she? Yes yes.. And after your father died where did you move to? hestria? Park, Stoke Newington Oh, quite a way out. Yes. How large a house was that then? A seven-roomed house. Quite a big house. With a bathroom. (laughter) Quite something wasn't it? Yes Who found you that house? I should think my father's parents because they lived in the same road, Hartford Road. Had any of your brothers started work at that stage? Yes, just about, just about. One had a business in Old Street, of cardboard box manufacture you know, making cardboard boxes. And then his health was so bad that he had to sell the business and the only way that the doctor suggested he would continue living was by horse riding! Well we couldn't afford horse riding so he took up a job as a bus driver. So he drove a bus for about 6/3d. a day, and of course, he might do three or four days and then he was a jolly good friend to the old men, that's men who would stand outside waiting for a job, and he would give them perhaps one or two days work during the week, and he could do with the rest. And you started work after leaving school then? Yes. Silversmith and jeweller and I did, I did alright at work but at that time I wasn't apprenticed and they gave me a job of getting the teas from a coffee shop for the men (?) and I didn't like that so I left - You weren't earning very much there? Yes, I was pretty smart making silver chains. In those days ladies would have belts you see, and there were lovely silver (?) on the front. Well I had the job of those after they were cast filing them up and polishing them, cigarette boxes. I was doing pretty well but I didn't like being sent out to but tea! What did you do them? Joined the Army! Oh? Yes, joined the Army. You were only 15 weren't you? 15 and 11 months What happened about that then? To join I had to be over 18 you see. Yes, quite. So when I went to Willington Barracks I told them I was 18 and 11 months! Told them that and they took it in as I went to Beverley in Yorkshire and after I'd been there a while the C.O. wanted to see me so I had to go and see the C.O. and I thought it was for something else but he said how old are you. I told him 18 and 11 months, he told me I was a fibber. He said I've had a letter from Major Graham, your uncle, wishing you to be transferred into his regiment. Do you like the Army, he said. I said yes, oh yes. Would you like to stop at 6d. a day. I said no. I can't live on a shilling a day. So with that I got me discharge. But I didn't get a voucher back to London. I had 14/- in me pocket, the 14/- I had, so then I walked from Selby into London, 200 odd miles. But you didn't mind that young, it was sport wasn't it? You went back home then did you? Yes And what was your next job? I think my next job was with the London General Omnibus Company. Being a bit mechanical and having a little bit of experience in silversmith and that we get a job. Mr. Kingham was the Chief Engineer and I stopped there 51 years and 2 months. Pretty long time wasn't it? Yes. I went up the ladder and down the ladder, yes. Went up the ladder I was chargehand, night foreman, general foreman, mechanical supt. And then the war came and they took all my buses so instead of having buses to carry people we had lorries, (Tiller)? lorries, made up with seats, garden seats and steps - or, a ladder at the back for people to get up in. That's how we managed. Well, before the war, before that started I had 60 buses, 60 P-type buses - the first 60, and when the war was over I had a garage with over a 100 buses but I hadn't got the staff - you see, my staff had gone to the Front and got killed and all that so I had to make up a new staff and that affected my health, that got me right down and I finished up with them as a Maintenance Engineer. 51 years and 2 months. That's a good record is it not? Yes, not bad. When you started with them what exactly were you working as? I beg your pardon. When you started work with them on these On the buses? What exactly were you doing? A road engineer, that is if the buses broke down work then I would repair them and put them in service again. (inaudible) Where was when they first started That's when they first started, and I maintained the first 10 straight squires on the streets of London - only 10 - and er, they were not like they are today. Everything today is high tension, well my buses were low tension. Quite different altogether from what they are today. (inaudible) Were you at home then? Oh yes, at home, used to go from Stoke Newington to North Road, Caledonian Road, and that, that wasn't a bus garage that was a coach factory where they used to build the horse buses and motor buses but they had enough room in there just to garage 10, 10 straight squires, and then went from there to Cricklewood. And then we had another type of bus on the road, still the London General, it was called the Vanguard. They were all Mills Daimlers, and I was night foreman at a garage in Albany Street, but there was still the, still the, they amalgamated with the London General you see, so I was still with the London General. How much was your first wage with them? Oh, I should say about £3 a week, that's all. That's a very good wage. Very good wage that was, very good It was good in those days I tell you How much (inaudible) did you give your mother Oh, I don't know. Like all children I never gave work my mother much. All children are the same! I doubt if I gave her - well, I must have done but not much. Children don't or didn't did they, not in those days? They don't now. No. Not a terrible lot No. Your parents were Church of England? Church of England, yes. St. Mary's Church, Hoxton. That was right opposite our business, and that Mr. Devereux, the Clergyman there, he used to drink very, very heavy, and when the people complained about it he said 'don't do as I do, do as I say!' (laughter) Was your father quite active? I meant in the church Oh yes. He'd jump his own height, very - a fine swordsman, good runner, good jumper, good swimmer. My second brother Arthur said 'Dad' he said, 'I want you to come down to Wenlock Baths' he said ‘and see me swim' so my father went down to Wenlock Baths to see the boy swim but the first one who was in the water was my father. He said 'Dad, I didn't think you could swim'. Very light on his feet too. He was a Highland Fling dancer. Oh? Yes, beautiful dancer. Yes, on the Caledonian Shield it has a man in the centre, a man of strength, that was supposed to be my father. And on, outside there was a cyclist, a runner, a boxer - I forget what the other one was. I've got his photo here. I'll show you. I think I've got his photo. Oh yes, do. In the boiler-house - and I used to smoke pretty heavy, so I thought old man, you can't afford this so I knocked it off and I bought a pound of sweets - you know? I know Just to help me through. A week later my stokers come to me and say 'Governor, if you don't start smoking again were going to turn the job in. He got too bad-tempered. Yes! (Laughter) Shocking. And I saw everything, I was looking for it, I was looking for trouble. Of course you were. You can always find it if you look for it. (laughter) Now you hear people talk about the lights of London, don't you? You know where the lights of London started from? The Angel, Islington, was a large hotel - public house, quite a lot of special ladies used to use it. Nevertheless, if you stood there and looked straight down City Road to Moorgate Street, that's what they used to call the lights of London, and there was no finer walk than going round the City on a Sunday evening. The City of London was beautiful. How did you spend your spare time How much what dear? What did you do in your spare time, weekends? I'm sure I don't know - everything that wasn't right. Lost in mystery (laughter) Yes. I don't remember. Did you know any holidays Oh, I used to spend a lot of time in the music halls, yes, such as Collins's and the Variety, Hoxton, and the Britannia Theatre, Hoxton I spent a lot of time in those places. And I used to drink very heavy. Yes, very heavy. And I started, when I was going to work, I'd be p'raps on a night shift as a night foreman going to work. I would go from Stoke Newington I'd walk down Manor Road and the first house was Lordship - Lordship Lane, Lordship Arms. I'd have half a pint. From there I would walk to Blackstock Road - that's Finsbury Park. I'd have another half pint in there. Then I would carry on to Camden - Camden Road - oh no, the Seven Sisters. Have half a pint in there. So you see we could carry a lot because - and then you're walking as well, so it didn't affect you, and another one at Camden Town and another one just on the corner of Albany Street. Then right opposite the garage would be a public house called The Victory. I used to go in there. Then I'd start work. But at half past five in the morning I'd be the first one out into the Vic to have a livener. And they were open all that early in those days. Half past five till half past twelve at night, and all the staff had was just a couple of hours in the afternoon, you know. Like one barmaid would be resting in the day and then she'd be on all day tomorrow and the next one resting and so on. How much was half a pint? ld. I was going to say, it wasn't much. It wasn't as much as it is now. ld. for half a pint, 2d. a pint, 4d. a quart. It was good beer? Oh, it was lovely beer, lovely beer. The only people that sell it today which I think is anything like it is Watneys, Watneys they used to go in for three half pence of gin. Three halfpence of gin and two out. Well, the two out was a measure, you see, a measure for three halfpence of gin. Did they drink it neat or did they put anything with it like they do now? No, nothing with it, no. Would they have the gin and then the beer after it, would they? Beg your pardon. No, that was in the dairy. They were very particular with the milk you know then, and he carried a cane under his am, and a cane.. I suppose my eldest brother was a bit inquisitive and he followed up behind and that came towards his eye and he only had one eye. Good gracious! He had a glass eye you know, but he only had one eye through this cane, and the Excise man couldn't do enough for him. So if there was anything wrong that day it wasn't recorded, it was too much. My wife was a good help to me with the chickens and ducks and all that. When she was confined it was a different sort of life altogether Did you do anything to help with the baby? Yes, everything. Would you ever change nappies. Yes. I liked taking him out in the pram. Before that I used to take him out in my arms. I was proud to take him out. Was there anyone you and your wife could talk to to ask for advice? Her mother lived in Stoke Newington. She used to see her every week. She used to send her five shillings every week. Did you and your wife discuss bringing up the child? Did you disagree at all? No. I wanted a girl for the first but it was a boy. Then we had four girls. What arrangement did you have about spending money? I used to give my wife something to spend every week and then I would pay the bills like gas; later on, about nine years later, I used to give her all the money. What made you do that? Because she was better off. Did your wife give up work. Yes. Did she ever work again? No. Did you help your wife in the house? Yes, everything that I could do: washing up and things like that. Have you any idea how old your father was when you were born? Oh, no. My father died at 41. And you were, roughly speaking, how old then? About 8. Oh, well, I can work that one out. And now about your mother; how old was she compared with your father? My mother died - she was 84; and she was a year older than my father. You said that your father was a cow keeper at one time. Yes. And also had an antique business? Yes. And was a prize fighter? Yes. A man of many things. Do you ever remember him being out of work? Never. What about your mother, did she have a job before she married your father? No. Did she ever work after she married him? Never worked. Only, you know, as housekeeper, looking after the children and all that. Did she serve in the shop, where there was the dairy? I don't think so. She did 8 hours pianoforte practice each day, so she wouldn't have much time for assisting in the shop. How did she fit in that pianoforte practising? She started practising - I'm talking now of when she was 11 years of age That's when she started. When you were children, did she still manage to play at all? Oh, always played, yes. Did you have anybody living with you, lodgers, or relations, at all? Not that I know of. Had a maid. Living in? Yes. Was that all through your childhood? Yes. What duties did she have? Oh, general, I suppose you'd call it. Not cooking. My mother did all the cooking. Just general, you know, looking after the children and putting us to bed and all those sort of things. Did you have the same one, or did you have lots of different ones? No, same one. What was her name? I couldn't tell you. Do you remember how you got on with her when you were children? Very well. Did your mother make or mend the clothing of the family? Did she make ….? Did she make any of the clothes? No, no. They were bought. Where were they bought from? in Islington. What sort of shop is that? Is it an outfitters? It was very much like … haberdashery. Do you remember your father doing anything to help at all in the house? No. And what about you and your brothers? And you had one sister, didn't you Yes, one sister. Did you have any jobs to do in the home? Did I have any jobs? Yes. No. Nothing at all? No. What about things like cleaning shoes, who did that? All did our own. Did you have to help look after your younger brothers and sister at all? No. The maid did all that? Yes. When you were a child, do you remember if you had to go to bed at a certain time? Yes, always in bed by 7. You said the maid used to put you to bed? Yes. Until what age was that? About 12, I should think. Was your mother usually in, in the evening when you went to bed? Always in. Did she come to say 'good night' to you? Yes, always. What were the sleeping arrangements of the family? How many bedrooms did you have? You're talking about when I was about 8, aren't you? Yes. About 4 bedrooms. Did you have to share a bed with your brothers? With my brothers, yes. Did your parents have a room to themselves, or did some of your brothers share with them? No, a room to themselves. I remember you said last time that in those days there weren't many bathrooms, but you had a bathroom when you were in Stoke Newington, didn't you? Yes. But before that did you not have a bathroom? No. So what room did the family have a bath in? Kitchen, I believe. As far as I can remember, a peculiar shaped bath. Did you have it on a certain night of the week? Friday. Was it a regular thing to put clean clothes on a set day, or set days? Always clean clothes after a bath. I wanted to ask you a bit about mealtimes. Whereabouts did the family have their meals? Well, you would call it a long room. That was … the meals were served in the long room, and that was a room twice as long as this. Which house is this you're talking about now? I'm talking about City Road, the {blank} public house. That' what I'm talking about now, at 8 years of age. Did you all have your meal together? Yes. When did you have your main meal, in midday or in the evening? No, midday. Did your mother cook it? Yes, with a cook. With a cook. Was it the same food that the customers would have had? Yes, exactly the same. Yes. Did your father sit down and eat with you, too? Mostly yes, he What sort of food would you have had? Leg of mutton. 'Course, it might have been lamb, but nevertheless, leg of mutton, potatoes, cauliflowers, sprouts. Another day it would be either baked potatoes and parsnips, celery - baked celery, you know. Any puddings? Oh, yes! Rice pudding with currants in it, baked in a round trough. Suet puddings, syrup; rice puddings; macaroni and cheese puddings; semolina puddings, all those kind of puddings. What about breakfast. Did you have breakfast when you were a child at that…? Yes, porridge. Porridge and with a boiled egg, I suppose, something like that. Did you ever have milk to drink? Milk, plenty of milk. Yes, plenty of milk. Quite a lot of milk. What did you have for tea in the evening? Oh, bread and butter, white and brown, muffins and crumpets. High days and holidays Did the maid that you had eat with you, the family? Eat with us? Yes. When you were small children did she give you your tea, or did your mother give it to you? Well, Mother was always there. She was always there, yes. Would you say that the maid was more like a nanny to you, or was she a help to your mother more, if you know what I mean? Things like your upbringing and your manners, was it your mother who saw to that? Mother, yes. Can you remember what your mother had to cook on, what sort of apparatus? Yes, a large kitchen range. Did she make anything herself in the way of jams or pickles or preserves? Ah, yes, in copper saucepans. What was it that she made? Strawberries. Strawberry Jam? Strawberry jam, peaches, apricots, blackcurrant jam. Oh, all sorts. All those jams? All those jams, yes, with sugar. I know what you mean, that brown sugar. What about wine? Did she ever make any wine or beer? Yes, elderberry wine. That's the only wine I remember. Where did she get the elderberries from? I couldn't tell you. Do you remember - now this is going on from the City Road pub - at any other time up to 1918, your mother growing the fruit or vegetables in the garden, or keeping any livestock? No. No fruit or vegetables in the garden, but we had dogs and ducks and chickens. Where was that? That was at Hartford Road. Hartford Road was your next move, was it? Yes, yes. Did you go there after your father died? Yes. Did your father's death make a big difference financially to your…? Oh, yes, yes. Member of Parliament. That's right. Was that help quite considerable? Yes. Did your mother have to get help from anybody else, or any other source? No. She bought some property, but she bought them leasehold, you see, so after years the lease ran out, you see. She lost the property. When your father died were any of the family earning? No. You were about 8, I think you said, and how old was the eldest then? Between 17 and 18. Was he, then, in full time education? No … no, he started off in business - cardboard, box-making. I remember you told me it was in Hoxton. That's right, yes. Didn't he manage to contribute anything to the family? I believe so, but I don't know. I don't know, I suppose …. Was he still living at home then? Yes. Did your mother still manage to keep on a maid after she moved, after your father's death? For 4 or 5 years yes. Why did she give up after that? I believe the maid left. And she didn't get another? No. No, my sister was able to help a little, you see. When you were a child, was Grace ever said at meals? Always, always. Who would say it? My father. Did he say it at all meals, or just occasionally? All meals. Were you allowed to talk during meals? No! I get into trouble now. My daughter says 'if we were to talk the same as you're talking now, we'd get into trouble'. So none of you were allowed to talk? No, not while meals were being served. Supposing there was something like the salt, you know, out of reach and you wanted it, could you ask for it? Oh, yes. You didn't have to wait for it to be offered to you? No. But only that sort of talk? That's all. Were you expected to hold your knife and fork in a certain way and no other way, that sort of thing? Yes. Were your parents particular about how you sat? Yes. How did they like you to sit? Sit upright. Did you always have the same places? Always the same places. Always the same serviette, or a bib as you might term it. They did in those days, you know. You mean Yes. If you wanted a second helping of something, could you ask? Yes. Were you obliged to eat everything that was served, or could you pick and choose? Oh, no. No pick and choosing. If you didn't like a thing, well, you never had it, but you didn't have anything else to compensate it. If you were helped to something, were you expected to finish it? Oh, yes. And suppose you didn't? It would be taken away and wasted. Would you be coaxed into eating it, or would any remarks be made if you left your food? I don't think so. Because at that time I never liked tomatoes, well I never had tomatoes, you see, they were never given to me, they were never offered to me. When would you leave the table? When they'd all finished. Who would serve the food? Either my mother or the maid. Did your father do any carving, or serving at all? Always carving. When you had younger brothers and sisters - I mean very small children, you know - did they eat with you? Yes. About two years old, that sort of age? Or were they ever fed separately? No, all together. People say nowadays that a lot of children are allowed much more sort of freedom with their parents, how they talk to them and that sort of thing, than there used to be in the old days, did you find your mother an easy person to talk to and get along with? No. She wasn't easy? She would advise us, but we were not … wasn't allowed to listen, I mean to say if there was any conversation between the adults, well, we had our play in the corner or whatever it was and never … we were not allowed to listen, really, practically. So you didn't talk to her much, then? As we got older we did, yes. If you were worried about something - or perhaps you weren't the worrying kind - but if you had a problem, could you take it to her? Certainly, yes. She was approachable? Oh, yes. What about your father, did you feel close to your father? Yes, very. You could take problems to him, too? Yes. Could you tell me what sort of things your parents felt were important in life for your children to sort of be brought up to think and do? You know, their sort of attitudes. Just schooling, I should think. They were interested in your schooling? Yes. What about your general behaviour and manners, did they pay attention to that sort of thing, did they think it important? Well, we were always fighting. Among each other, or amongst other people? No, amongst ourselves. What attitude did they take to that? Just came and stopped us. And Mother used to say 'Big as you are, I'll knock you down' (laughter) 'stop it'. If you did something they disapproved of did they punish you? Yes. Only by putting us to bed. You weren't smacked? No. Never smacked. Not No. I got hit once; now what was it for? Oh, I know my father, he didn't hit me for it, but he toed me for it with the toe of his boot on my bottom and I said 'Oh, me heart, oh, me heart' and my father said, 'It's the first time I knew that your heart was in your breeches', but what it was over I don't know. But that's the only occasion you can remember? That's all. Would you say that you got your ideas about how to behave from both your parents? Yes. Equally? Yes. More from my mother, you see, because I was with her longer, you see. Were they particular about your language, or was that not a problem in your family? No. We never used bad language, and my parents never used them. Would you say that they were ambitious for your futures? Yes. When you were a family when your father was still alive, were there any things that you all used to do together as a family? Any outings or visits you used to do? Go down to All of you? What sort of things would you do there? Just watch the magic lantern. You said your mother used to play the piano? Yes. Did any of the rest of you play any musical instruments? My sister played. We had a … yes, my elder brother played at school. He went to {blank} school, I think, yes, {blank} I think it was, and one of his lessons were music and he played the cornet. Did he ever play it in the home? Yes. Did he play in a group at all? I mean did anybody else play a wind…? No. Did your parents play any games with you at all? Yes, I should think so, yes. Do you remember any that they played? Yes, cards; Beat Your Neighbour Out of Doors, and Dominoes. Did you have any books in the house, or newspapers? Yes, oh, yes. Were they keen on reading? Yes. What sort of newspapers did you have? Do you remember the names of any of them? Yes. Reynolds. Reynolds' News? Yes. And I believe, The Telegraph, Punch, Titbits, and as children we used to have The Boy's Friend, a children's paper. That's as much as I remember. Can you remember doing anything with your mother and father on Christmas Day? Oh, we always had a big do on Christmas Day. Could you describe it to me? Well, we used to hang our stockings up, and pillowcases, and we had our toys; come down to breakfast, and then they'd be preparing for Christmas Dinner, and we'd have a Christmas Pudding - well, a tremendous size. And they would stop up all night Christmas Eve watching the puddings in a copper, a large copper, keeping it boiling all the time for about 12 hours and we would have about 8 or 9 large Christmas puddings. And some of those would last the whole year. They would be brought out at different 'dos'. Did your mother make them all? Yes, with the cook, you know. Did you have any relations or friends coming in on Christmas Day? Quite a lot, yes. Did you have relations or friends living near you in your various houses? I think you said at Hartford Road? Hartford Road, yes. That was your father's mother? That's right. Did you have relations with you when you were in the City Road? Not living with us, but always came down to visit. When they came were they entertained to a meal? Oh, meals, yes. When they come it would be a real spread, you see. For instance there'd be an H-bone of beef, there'd be a sucking pig, there'd be a chicken. Would this be just at Christmas you mean they'd have this? No! On an ordinary day? Whenever they came in. Very lavish hospitality? That's right. Do you remember being taken out to visit them? Oh, yes, yes. When you were taken to visit relations were you also entertained to a meal? At times, yes. At times. Did you ever go and stay with relations - spend the night, or nights? Yes. Where was that? I went to Whitley Bay, Northumberland, and stopped with an aunt of mine - and aunt and uncle of mine. He was managing director for the furniture … ships' furniture people. And I was there fore ... after my father died, so as to relieve my mother … and I was there for about 2 years. Would have been there for longer if I hadn't misbehaved myself. But they had a friend, Mrs. Brown, must have been in poor health because I heard that she was poorly, you see. Mrs. Brown said to me one day would I come to tea. I said, 'I'm sorry, 'I said, 'you're too poor'. (laughter) And my aunt and uncle sent me home for that. Why do you think you said that she was too poor to go and have tea with? Well, because I heard them say, 'poor Mrs. Brown ….' Yes, I know that, but I mean did you think that poor people couldn't entertain to tea? Was that right? I suppose so, yes, it must have been that. Must have been that. When you were a child did you mix much with poor children? 'Cos you must have been better off than a lot of the children round about, weren't you? Oh, yes, yes! But we mixed with poor children. Did you play with them? Yes. Because when you went to St. Thomas's Charterhouse, was that mostly children from better homes? Yes. Did you continue to associate with the poorer working class? Yes. We lived with them, they were mostly… In the streets? Yes. Were your parents particular about whom you were friendly with? Who you played with? Very, very. What were their ideas about that? That they were clean, and speech was perfect. So did that mean there were some children they wouldn't like you to associate with? Yes, yes. Oh, of course. No, I just wondered what their own particular views were on that. Do you remember going away for a family holiday while your father was still alive? Yes. Where was that? Burnham-on-Crouch. How long did you stop away for? I should think we were there for about a month, because we went to school there. While we were there we went to an infants' school. For a month? Yes. That sounds strange. And when you were in Whitley Bay, did you go to school there, too? Yes. Were other children also sent to stay with relatives after your father died? Yes. How many stopped at home, then? Will went to Aunt Maria, I went to Pat at Whitley; Bert, he stopped at home. Our Doreen went to live with my grandmother. And did the others all come home eventually, like you did? No. They stayed away? They stayed away. How did you feel about coming home again? I was only too pleased. Do you think if you hadn't made that remark …? I should still be there. I'd be one of the family. They had children of their own? One boy. Were you homesick while you were there, then? No. You didn't miss your home? No. But you were glad to be back? Yes. Did you see your mother or your brothers and sisters during those two years? No. Were you sent there straight after your father died? Yes. So you would have been about 8 to 10 years old while you were there? Yes. But you never went to a boarding school at any time? No. When you got back home again, did you go back to St. Thomas's Charterhouse? Yes, I went to St. Thomas's Charterhouse. Before that I went to an ordinary day school, at Radnell St. Not there now. I went to look for it. I think you said to Miss Sloane that your family was Church of England? Yes, yes, Church of England. Did you go to Church or a Sunday School when you were a child? Yes. Did you go regularly, or occasionally? Regularly. What about your father and mother, did they go, too? Well, my father was Church Warden, at St. Mary's Church, Britannia St. And your mother? Yes, she went. Were you allowed to play on Sundays, and read ordinary books and that kind of thing? We were allowed to read, and play, I believe. Yes, yes. Sunday wasn't strictly kept? No. Did you have to have special clothes on a Sunday? Oh, yes. Did you belong to the choir? I didn't, but my next brother did, one older than me, at St. Sepulchre's Church, opposite Newgate Street. So some of you went to other churches, did you? Yes. As we got older, you know. This was after my father died. Did you belong to any clubs organized by the church? I know you mentioned the Band of Hope, was that attached to the Church, at all? Band of Hope, attached to the Church, yes. Any other clubs or organisations? No. You said something very interesting about your father, that he was a Radical, but his views were Conservative. Yes. What exactly did you mean by that? Well, he was a Radical and he did a lot of work for the Radicals, such as lending out rooms and working for them. Lending out rooms, did you say? That's right. And his friends were Radicals. His friends were Conservatives. They would have chats for hours and hours and hours, and finally I think my father became a Conservative. Through their influence, do you mean? Through their influence, yes. What do you think it was about Conservative policy that made him change? Do you remember him discussing any issues? No. Do you think the way he voted had anything to do with the kind of job he did? Some people told me they vote, you know, according to their interest in their work. No, I don't think so. What about your mother, do you know what her views were politically? Conservative. She was always Conservative? Always Conservative, yes. Did she and your father discuss politics? No. Nor religion. They had the same religious views, do you think? Yes. Did your parents have any outside interest outside the home? And work? My father did, to help the poor. What sort of things did he do? His radical views, of course, would be in connection with that. Well, he had a soup kitchen. Did he? Yes, fed children and people with soup. Soup and bread. Where was that? {blank} Buxton. What job was he doing, was he in with a cow keeper there? Yes. Public. How long did he keep that going for? That soup kitchen going? 'Till the {blank} got work, I suppose, I know it was a very, very long time And how long did it last, that soup kitchen that he started? I couldn't tell you. Who used to serve out the food? Oh, volunteers. You'd get volunteers serving out the food. Did he go round himself? I mean did he take a sort of day to day interest in it? Just call in and see it was … I think he'd even taste it, I'm not sure Did he provide all the money for it? Yes. All of it? Well, with the parties, you see East Bloomsbury Radical Club. Oh, they were responsible, were they? Yes. East Bloomsbury Radical Club. Did he go often to Radical Club meetings? Oh, yes. When would that be, in the evenings? That would be … yes. Perhaps once or twice a week. And did your mother go too, to Radical Club meetings? No. It was just men, was it? Yes. Did your mother have any outside enjoyments, or pastimes outside the home? No, only music. Did she go to concerts, then? Yes. Who would she go with if she went to a concert? Perhaps take my sister with her. Did she ever go out or do anything with friends? No. Did your parents have friends? Yes. I mean that they had together. I know your father had friends, but did they have a sort of joint social life? Yes. What sort of things did they do with their friends? Chat, I suppose, that's all. They used to come down and visit us. One we used to call 'Aunt Polly', no aunt of ours, I mean … The one in Whitley Bay, you mean? No. No, this was a friend. She was manageress for one of the big sweet people … not Maynards. I don't know who she was with, but she was manageress for a big sweet firm. And she was no relation, she was a friend? Just a friend, yes. We used to know that, you see, because she used to fetch us parcels of sweets. I expect she was popular. Caramels. Campbells? Caramels. She used to bring caramels. Did your father do anything else for the poor? Yes. One time there was a big strike on … cabman's strike. The cabman's … before they took a cab out in the morning they had to pay for the cab, and if they earned that amount of money, that was their living. If they didn't earn … 9 cases out of 10 they didn't get as much money as they paid in for the cab, you see, they hired the cab, they had to hire the cab, and they went on strike. And my father gave them … well, I say, 'gave', they were allowed to come to our house and have a glass of stout and bread and cheese every day they were on strike. Well, when my father died there was 95 empty cabs followed the funeral and the wreath that they sent was as large an a hansom cab was. Did your father have a pretty big funeral, then? Yes. Lots of other people there, too? It was a procession. They had Salvation Army Band, East Bloomsbury Radical Club Band and I'm not sure whether they … no, the Horse Guards never came in it, but those two bands I know were there, and … You know City Road? Is that where the Leighs Mission Hall is? Near Shoreditch? Well, the funeral was from City Road to Old Street, right down Old St. to Shoreditch. And that was the length of the funeral. That's a long way, yes. Did you wear mourning? They did. Did your mother wear …? My mother never went. No ladies went. No ladies went to the funeral. Did your mother wear black clothes? Black clothes, a bonnet with what’s ‘er name weeds. Widow's weeds. Yes. Did she wear it for a while afterwards? A long time afterwards. What about you children, did you have any different clothes? We all had black clothes. All black. After the funeral procession, was there a funeral supper or funeral tea, or anything of that kind? I don't remember. You didn't take part in anything at all? No. You told me that your father had been a very good sportsman, a very outstanding sportsman. Yes. He was in the Horse Guards Blue; he was the … Jumped his own height, good jumper; sword dancer; first class fencer; a proper sportsman. Did he keep it on through his married life? Yes. And he also, in Albany Street, the Royal Horse Guards Blue had a fire and he got out 19 horses from that fire. How did he manage that? I don't know. He got out 19 horses. Did both your mother and your father have relations living in London? Yes. They both did? My grandmother lived at Finsbury Park. That's your maternal grandmother? My mother's mother. My father's people lived in Hartford Road. When your mother was ill, or when she was confined you're your younger brothers and sisters, did she have help from any of her relations? Did they come and help her at all? No. How did she manage, then, when she was in bed? The doctor would recommend a nurse. She had one of the finest doctors there was, that was Dr. Barratt, and that was the Prince - Edward VII - Prince of Wales's doctor. He got into - he had a big family, 12 in family … 12 ... 12 children and he became poor and my father, being a bailiff, had to distrain on him, and my father went in, looked round. He said, 'that's a nice picture; that's a nice picture; that's a nice picture. I'm going out now, 'he said, 'and take those to a certain place' and he would get cleared. That means to say that my father would not necessary to distrain on him. So he had enough money to clear it. After that Dr. Barratt and my father were very good friends And was it after that he became your doctor, or before? No, after that. When you were a schoolchild, did you have any hobbies? No, only … no, only children's hobbies, you know, iron hoops, and ... Yes. Swimming. Was that just at the school swimming pool, or did you have swimming nearby your home? We had swimming by our home and we had swimming at school. And you were keen on it? Swimming school. Bathing school Did your parents give you any pocket money? I don't think so. It might have been a penny, or two pence. I don't know, I think it was more farthings in those days, because, if we had any sweets at all … yes, it would be either a penny or a farthing, 'cos you'd go into the shop and you'd buy a farthing piece of chocolate. Fry's chocolate, it used to be a penny … four squares for a penny. If you only had a farthing, well, you'd buy a farthings-worth. You said you were always fighting with your brothers? Yes. Did you fight with your sister, too? No. Was there one brother you felt particularly close to, or were you the same with all of them? No, all of them. We were all … all very good friends. You got along well? Yes, well, we'd have a fight over a toy, or something like that. When you were a child, or a schoolboy, were you conscious of belonging to a particular social class or group in society? No, very quiet. Mostly on my own. But I mean as a family, were you aware of belonging to a certain social class as compared with other people, being a bit above them, or …? No. You weren't? No. Were you brought up to treat people of one kind differently from another at all? Sometimes, you know, in the country people I've spoken to about these days said they would be taught to say 'sir' and 'madam' to certain people. No. Touch their caps, that kind of thing. No. Do you remember people showing respect to your parents in that way? By calling them 'sir', or 'madam'? Yes. In the district where you lived who would you say were generally considered to be the most important people? At that time? Trades people. Tailor, wheelwright, photographer yes, mostly the trades people. And what other people did the trades people associate with? In their social life. Or did they mostly just associate with each other? Yes. Do you think that your mother and father had the same attitude to people in different social classes - you know, poorer working people ... Yes. They shared the same attitudes? Yes. Do you remember anyone being described at that time as 'a real gentleman' or 'a real lady'? Yes, my mother. You would say she was a real lady? Real lady. What sort of qualities do you think are those that a real lady has? Speech, behaviour and dress. What particularities of dress? Mostly what I can realise that … a nice black velvet dress, and hair, black hair done in a plait round and round and round and round and round. Hair dressed up nicely and who dresses nicely. Did you think that the police treated some people differently from others when you were a boy? No! Did you ever come into contact with the police? Yes. Could you tell me about an occasion? Yes. Well, where we lived they used to have a post at the corner of the street, and they were very much like a gun with a round top, you know. We used to jump over them. Well, if we get up to mischief - we used to get up to mischief, you know - and the policeman came after us, he used to have a black glove and balls, you know, little glass balls in his fingers, and if you did anything wrong and he came up to you, he'd hit you with those. Well, we used to have a lark with the policeman. When you did something wrong, perhaps in the street that the children would be playing {blank}, something like that … that's a pan that you use for … kick about like a football. If the policeman came along he didn't like that. We were playing in the road, and you shouldn't play in the road, he'd come after us. Then we'd go along 'till we came to a place where the posts were a bit too close for him to get through and we'd dodge through there, look out from the other side and laugh at him. (laughter) Then there was another thing we used to do. That was a policeman on beat, he would get dry, so he would find a doorway to go in then we would know that the barman was apt to take him over a pint of beer or half a pint of beer. There at night when we'd … closing up at half past 12, we had a dog called Dick, he was {blank} terrier, and that {blank} terrier used to get out before we closed the public house and stop out and he'd parade all night with the policeman. Different policeman, different policemen changed over, you know, different police, and that, the old dog would still be with them. Your first job, I think I'm right in saying, was at a jewellers? Silversmiths and jewellers. How old were you when you took that job? I'm not sure, 14 or 15. Had you earned any money in any other way before you took that job? No. And you said that you were quite good at making chains? Yes. But you didn't like going out for tea? You didn't like going out to get tea? Oh, no. Why did you object to that? It wasn't a nice job. You took a long pole and you had about 8 or 9 beer cans on it, you'd go into a coffee shop with others, and we were a bit of a high standard I suppose, and didn't like mixing with the other two boys. And I didn't like that job. The other two boys used to come with you with the pole, did they? Yes. Not from the same firm, they were from different firms, you see. Oh, you didn't like mixing with the other boys in the shop? No. Why do you think that was, do you think perhaps because you'd been to a different sort of school? Might have been, yes. Might have been. It wasn't a nice job, if one was standing in a coffee shop waiting for … You mean you had to spend quite a lot of time in that coffee shop? Yes, waiting them to be filled up and all that lark. It's not a nice job. When you became a road engineer how did you get on with the other people there that you came into contact with? Very well. I was a pal, I suppose. Well, you had a very good wage for a young man at that time, didn't you? Yes. When you started this road engineer work, did you still live at home? Yes. Did you ever belong to a trade union at that time? Not at that time. I did belong to a trade union, but 30 years later. But at that time you didn't belong to any trade union? No. Did you feel that employers and workers had different interests at that time, even though you didn't belong to a trade union? No. You mean you didn't have views on that? No. Did you feel there was a division between, say, craftsmen, skilled workers and unskilled workers? No. Yes, your craftsman fancied himself a bit, if I might put it that way and your other man, the assistant craftsman was an underdog. But later on as years went on it differed. But at the start your assistant was a mate and you would treat him as a mate. Sometimes it was like that. You mean, later on, as years passed? As years passed it altered, but at that time… People kept to different things? Yes, they did. Would you say that going out to work changed your ideas about life, your attitude to life, and yourself in any way? No. I got on well with everybody, so I mean to say, it's not necessary to change. I just wondered if that contact with other people with other kinds of life made you change? No. I think you said you were about 25 when you married? Yes. So that was about 1912? Yes. Yes, it would be 1912. Could you tell me where you met your wife? Yes. My brother had a sweetheart, my wife was the sweetheart's friend. That's how we met. Did you know her long before you decided to get married? Well, yes. I met her when she was 17 and I would've been about 19 then. From 19 to 25, six years. Did she have living parents at that time? Yes. How did you get along with them? Very well indeed. When you wanted to marry her, did you do what some people did at that time - and some people still do - did you go and speak to her father? Yes. Did you save up before getting married Yes. Did you get any help in setting up your first home? No, it wasn't necessary. Did your wife work before she was married? Yes. What sort of work did she do? She was a dressmaker and she used to do a lot of fur work and she used to use her own hair for cotton. How very original. Was that usual? Yes. What colour was her hair then? Light, brown. Did you have a large wedding, or a small one? Rather a large wedding, yes. Three horses - no motors then. And about how many guests? I should think 30 or 40. Were you able to go away for a honeymoon? After the wedding? Or did you go back to work straight away? No, no I went straight back to work. Did she go on working as a dressmaker? No. She stopped work? Yes. Where did you live after the wedding? {blank} Road, Walthamstow, a little flat. And my hobby then was chickens … I had 40 white {blank} chickens, I had a Great Dane, I had two sporting Retriever dogs and I had an Airedale dog and no children. (laughter) I'd have thought you hardly had room for children. I had a lovely garden, and as soon as the first child came along I got rid of all of them, bar one dog. Why was that? No time? Well, it was too much. See, my wife was a big help to me with the chickens and dogs, and all that. When she was confined